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Post by supershaser on Mar 12, 2014 21:48:23 GMT
So this is what a person said the other day. I shouted to recruit for Daily mission quest which I saw japanese players do too, so I thought this was OK. I know people don't use shout often here because some may feel hurt by it (kinda annoying sometimes imo) but this was during a time where all jap people should be asleep (6AM in the morning for them) and babel was nearly empty. Yet, there still is someone willing to lecture and threaten me. It seems he is an english person (which makes it even worse). Honestly, if im getting banned for this little thing then go ahead and I'll quit forever if it's like this. /end rant
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Post by rutee on Mar 13, 2014 0:20:25 GMT
Whether you feel the person talking to you was being rude or not, their intentions were most likely good, so don't get too mad about it. While I think threatening to report is extreme and not the best idea unless it's seriously necessary (after all, tons of minor reports coming from us won't make us look good to CAVE, either), I don't think they were trying to be malicious towards you, so the slight dramabait with posting the chat log wasn't really necessary in order to ask your question, in my opinion. For what it's worth, I very rarely see people shout for DM. Maybe once per week. So it's done... sometimes. But *personally* I would still err on the side of caution and stick to using party list for now. If Shout chat becomes more active suddenly after our mass exodus from Marvelous, anyone who dislikes it WILL blame us, even if some Japanese players were already doing the same thing. I also wouldn't assume that certain time periods are 'safe' to ignore server norms, since you know, there are certain to be Japanese night owls and insomniacs too, just like in any country Remember, the big point here is that we are guests on this server, no matter what time of day it is in Tokyo.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2014 1:13:22 GMT
Please don't take our guest status for granted in the Japanese server. Even the Japanese players who use shout chat apologize in their message for using it. So I don't see how the request from an English player somehow makes it worse. They were just speaking from experience and looking out for the group as a whole. I understand that this is different, but remember that their server was on before International and will continue long after with or without us. I'd prefer its with us.
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Post by supershaser on Mar 13, 2014 1:21:38 GMT
Whether you feel the person talking to you was being rude or not, their intentions were most likely good, so don't get too mad about it. While I think threatening to report is extreme and not the best idea unless it's seriously necessary (after all, tons of minor reports coming from us won't make us look good to CAVE, either), I don't think they were trying to be malicious towards you, so the slight dramabait with posting the chat log wasn't really necessary in order to ask your question, in my opinion. For what it's worth, I very rarely see people shout for DM. Maybe once per week. So it's done... sometimes. But *personally* I would still err on the side of caution and stick to using party list for now. If Shout chat becomes more active suddenly after our mass exodus from Marvelous, anyone who dislikes it WILL blame us, even if some Japanese players were already doing the same thing. I also wouldn't assume that certain time periods are 'safe' to ignore server norms, since you know, there are certain to be Japanese night owls and insomniacs too, just like in any country Remember, the big point here is that we are guests on this server, no matter what time of day it is in Tokyo. I uderstand this but its just weird that the first warning I get is not from a japanese person but from an english one. How big is the group of japanese people who want dead silence in shout/say? Cause they seem really nice people and even some joined after my shout. It seems like its not the japanese who are bothered but our own international people. Also, this game was designed so people could totally block out shout/say chat (see tabs) so why would CAVE implent that if they didn't want people to use shout? Aren't they japanese themselves? I'm sorry if this bothered you but it just all seems very illogical to me. I put the chat log there to check if this guy was being serious with me and not just a troll acting all high and mighty. If he/she saw this maybe he/she would reconsider the way he "asks" people things.
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Post by rutee on Mar 13, 2014 1:47:20 GMT
I guess all I can say is that it doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense to you, as we're not the intended audience for the server. That's really what it comes down to. Whether you feel it makes sense or not, whether you meet Japanese players who are exceptions to some norms or not, we as the foreign community are not the people who get to decide server norms here. In the interest of not making waves and not annoying the server at large, it's best to conform to said norms. That's my stance.
To use the guest analogy again, say you grew up eating at a table in a separate dining room. If a friend invites you to their house and they have their table in the kitchen and use their 'dining room' for other purposes, you wouldn't go that "well, that doesn't make sense!" and then move their table, right? Because it's not your house.
Same idea.
On your other point, I don't really understand how it's strange that an English speaking player was the one who warned you. Most of us don't speak Japanese, so we're going to have to spread information and advice amongst ourselves, and they probably assumed that you simply hadn't been told about the Shout chat norms yet. What I was trying to express is that it didn't seem to me like he/she was trying to be 'high and mighty', he or she just saw you engaging in a potentially looked-down upon mannerism and tried to warn you. While I agree that the report threats were unneccessary (and I think that actually reporting each other at the drop of a hat is a bad idea), I don't think that the act of telling you to stop using Shout was wrong.
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Post by denauli on Mar 13, 2014 3:44:54 GMT
I've tried to give friendly warnings when I see new players using shout/say chats in even populated areas. Sometimes, I admit, it comes off a bit strongly worded to tell someone: "wait! Stop it! Here we have to (enters further explanation after the action has ceased)". But it is done with the intent of informing a newcomer about proper etiquette.
One of the common responses I get is "why? That makes no sense?" Please realize that we are foreigners here. What was normal or intuitive to us is not universal. Now we are literally thrust into a community had that very different ideas about what it means to conduct yourself in an appropriate and courteous manner. It may seem strange because it's different, but it's not our place to challenge these norms.
Our presence here doesn't seem to be met with much opposition. We should hope to keep it that way, enjoy the game as much as we can, and try not to draw too much negative attention to ourselves~
Side note: I'm reminded of seeing foreign languages spoken in shout/say on the international server and some English-speaking player would tell them to not clutter our chat with nonsense. I always found that to be extremely rude. But I suppose now the shoe is quite on the other foot xD
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LTRL
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Post by LTRL on Mar 13, 2014 19:49:18 GMT
Side note: I'm reminded of seeing foreign languages spoken in shout/say on the international server and some English-speaking player would tell them to not clutter our chat with nonsense. I always found that to be extremely rude. But I suppose now the shoe is quite on the other foot xD THIS. THANK YOU for pointing that out.XD I always got so angry at people who would put down the non-english speaking players shouting their clan recruitments and being all "Oh my god, will you shut up? No one wants to join your clan!" and other obviously ignorant and rude comments like that. Drove me crazy.>.<
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Estra
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Post by Estra on Mar 15, 2014 2:47:29 GMT
I don't blame them, quite frankly. Any time I hear a clanmate say someone is shouting in English, I ask them to please PM the person to stop. This is the kind of stuff that ends up reflecting poorly on all of us. I brought it up in another thread, but some JP players saw someone shouting obscenities in Japanese and immediately they assumed it was an international player. When we use shout recklessly (especially in English and especially with the frequency we used it on our server), it makes it easier for Japanese players to assume we're all like this.
Please just try to respect the cultural norms here. Just because you aren't getting warned by Japanese players doesn't mean they aren't paying attention to this. Direct confrontation isn't everyone's thing, after all.
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luzt
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Post by luzt on Mar 16, 2014 16:14:06 GMT
You mean like this xD ? (from some weeks ago)
[Shout]花音~かのん~ : つかまえたぞ 宇宙人 不細工アジア人のフリしてふざけた態度とるジャないか! (00:30:18) [Shout]花音~かのん~ : あああこら!!!!!!! (00:30:23) [Shout]花音~かのん~ : おい!!!!! (00:30:30) [Shout]花音~かのん~ : なんとかいってみろこら!!!!!!!!!!!!! (00:30:38) [Shout]花音~かのん~ : 気も悪い朝鮮人の腐ったような顔しやがって!!!!!!!!! (00:31:14) [Shout]花音~かのん~ : 宇宙人よ! 引っぺガスぞこの顔を!!!!!!!!!! (00:32:11) [Shout]花音~かのん~ : ふざけんじゃねーぞ! こら!!! (00:33:05) [Shout]花音~かのん~ : 踏み潰すぞ この不細工アジア人に化けた宇宙人が!!!! (00:33:35)
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Post by blameless on Apr 6, 2014 4:18:08 GMT
You mean like this xD ? (from some weeks ago) [Shout]花音~かのん~ : つかまえたぞ 宇宙人 不細工アジア人のフリしてふざけた態度とるジャないか! (00:30:18) [Shout]花音~かのん~ : あああこら!!!!!!! (00:30:23) [Shout]花音~かのん~ : おい!!!!! (00:30:30) [Shout]花音~かのん~ : なんとかいってみろこら!!!!!!!!!!!!! (00:30:38) [Shout]花音~かのん~ : 気も悪い朝鮮人の腐ったような顔しやがって!!!!!!!!! (00:31:14) [Shout]花音~かのん~ : 宇宙人よ! 引っぺガスぞこの顔を!!!!!!!!!! (00:32:11) [Shout]花音~かのん~ : ふざけんじゃねーぞ! こら!!! (00:33:05) [Shout]花音~かのん~ : 踏み潰すぞ この不細工アジア人に化けた宇宙人が!!!! (00:33:35) In Japan, a large part of the culture is "Consideration". Always to consider how your actions effect the ones around you. Even in real life, it's quite rude to be loud where everyone can hear or be bothered by you. Sure, some people will still talk loudly or shout (such as in this instance) but it is still quite rude regardless of whether the person is Japanese or a foreigner. But, it can be considered worse if you are a foreigner because of the natural negative bias towards foreigners. I mean no offense, but Japanese people can be very racist. For instance, the word "Gaijin" is often used in place of "Australian" or "American", even on the News broadcast on the TV.
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Metis
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Post by Metis on Apr 6, 2014 9:00:09 GMT
I'm still not quite clear about this ”外人” (Gaijin) calling which literally means "Foreigner." I think I remember that word while watching Tokyo Drift long ago in which a native Japanese referred to the MC (who is an American.. I think you know who he is. RIP) a Gaijin in a cynical tone. Also, I have some native Japanese friends who sometimes refer to me as a Gaijin when talking about me with their other native friends.
What I'm not clear about is, is calling a foreigner 外人 considered a racist act? If so, then what's the softer way to call someone a foreigner without sounding racist?
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Post by Foxnull on Apr 6, 2014 12:10:53 GMT
I'm still not quite clear about this ”外人” (Gaijin) calling which literally means "Foreigner." I think I remember that word while watching Tokyo Drift long ago in which a native Japanese referred to the MC (who is an American.. I think you know who he is. RIP) a Gaijin in a cynical tone. Also, I have some native Japanese friends who sometimes refer to me as a Gaijin when talking about me with their other native friends. What I'm not clear about is, is calling a foreigner 外人 considered a racist act? If so, then what's the softer way to call someone a foreigner without sounding racist? I think it depends on the person(s) in question to be honest. Not everyone sees it the same way. While i do agree westerners and their doings sometimes confuse Japanese people, i'd like to have faith it is not universal. Though do remember, Japan is kind of its own little world separated from everyone else. They do their own thing, and they're confused and sometimes fascinated by outsiders. It's not always negative. We just need to show respect. As for 外人 i'd probably avoid it, just to be safe.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2014 5:36:22 GMT
Yeah..... TBQH I give anyone who says "gaijin" is racist the side eye? Like, it means [Western] foreigner, but is generally a positive term in my experience? My experience was that I got white privilege on steroids and was treated better than native Japanese people in any number of circumstances. Which, granted, was 4 months in Nagoya 11 years ago, but still. There are some white people who think "gaijin" is bad, but nothing they say about how Westerners are treated in Japan meshes with what I experienced there, at all? And they tend to suggest "gaikokujin" instead which is generally used to mean Asian foreigners and actually *does* have a negative connotation, so they don't have much credibility in my book.
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Post by denauli on Apr 8, 2014 6:48:05 GMT
Just thought I'd offer my own opinion on the use of the term "gaijin."
I'm by no means an authority on Japanese culture. I've only recently started to learn the language and explore possibilities of traveling to Japan to live and work temporarily. Of course this basically means surviving in Japan as a "gaijin" or foreigner. The term in and of itself does not seem to be used with racist intent. It denotes a person as not being native Japanese.
Culturally, Japan seems to hold onto some xenophobic attitudes and I've read about a certain degree of racism which exists in Japanese culture today. Not that I'm condemning anything, I'm in the USA and we are not exactly a beacon of racial equality... My point being that these types of attitudes and beliefs are not exactly embodied in the term gaijin.
Looking around some jvloggers on YouTube many people seem to embrace the status. Again, just sharing my thoughts. I'm always welcome to being corrected and informed ^-^
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fuki
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Post by fuki on Apr 27, 2014 9:54:36 GMT
Living in a rural place in UK, people there refer to anyone who is not of UK origin as a foreigner. It is one of those things that is only offensive if used with derogatory intent. Which leads me to believe it's the same for Japanese language. Like the term Westerners, some use it as a harmless description to anyone from the West side of the world. Yet, there are people who intend to use the word in a racist manner (which I have encountered on facebook a few times). Which leads me to believe it's how it's used that defines whether it's rude or not.
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